So, PTMSA are 4 people.

Click on the "peters township marcellus shale awareness & action" tab. You'll find the quote "Depending on the circulator, individual estimates range somewhere between two-to-one to three-to-one in favor of an outright ban". Yep, that's what they are claiming after getting only 2422 signatures. Even the fuzziest math can't make that work. Hey, PTMSA, is ANYTHING you say true?

Home rule, with citizen involvement, now that has a forefather thought to government, for the people, by the people.

I thought that we were citizens of PA and USA as well as PT. Heck, this opens the door fo "Home Rule" anything. Let's ban teenage drivers and legalize marijuana.

Since we seem to be following pittsburgh, Why dont we look and see where they are in this process??? Just putting it on the ballot wont make it legal !!!! I know the gas company is in this to win this. If you are wondering where all the land owners are that hold leases?? They have rights also and will trust in the courts rulings. Only in PT could we screw up a free ride!!! Drill Baby Drill !!!

I want to thank all that have decided to implement our rights. Many of us do not wish to see this type of industry in a community that attracted many citizens to a beautiful area.
Keep up educating the community...we only have one earth...take care of it!
Debbie M-G

"the rights of natural communities, the right to a sustainable energy future, and the right to self-government; and which secures those rights by banning corporate gas extraction within the township and subordinating corporate rights to the rights of Peters Township residents?”

First off all, "natural communities"?? What is this, BioDome? Does Pauly Shore run the township? Are we now a bunch of tree people sitting around and crying about mother earth?
Second, by trying to take away rights from one industry, you're opening up the township to a challenge by EVERY industry. Good move, PTMSA. And I guess none of you drive cars, use electricity, buy your food at Giant Eagle or have any knd of synthetic fabrics in your home, right? Yes, take a look at what's happening in Pittsburgh since the five protestors keep using it as an example. (Psst...the whole ban/referendum thing? Yeah--it's i-l-l-e-g-a-l...) Try attaching the whole "forefather" notion to breaking the law. I'm pretty sure they wrote the Constitution to include laws, not so people can make it up as they go.

Deborah, You won't be thanking them for long. Think of drilling as a drivers license, another activity that is regulated by the state of PA. If you wake up tomorrow and find that PT has banned you from driving what will you do? Least likely action is that you'll obey a ban that they illegaly and arrogantly attempted. Most likely you'll just continue to drive. Possibly you'll have a need to drive thru the community honking your horn and waving. If you are an attorney, you might decide that this action was obnoxious enough that you'll bring it to the attention of the courts. Get my point?

What this group did was flashy but completely absurd. Do you want to keep this industry out of PT? Take it to the state or work within our legal limits locally or both.

Thank you Deborah and all those circulators and voters who signed the petition and made it successful. This is not an easy effort, most of us have jobs and families and spent our personal time to gather signatures in 6 weeks. We wanted the voters and taxpayers of Peters to have a voice.

Cathy, We DID have a voice. We voted for leadership who were charged with looking out for the ENTIRE PT community. Now, we have your self appointed mystery group leading our community off of a cliff. Cathy, why won't you or your group answer questions? You've been asked many on this forum. They all remain unanswered.

"most of us have jobs..." Ha, right.
First, you have yet to provide any facts at all or justificaiton for a ban. None. Because you don't like it? That's why you want to toy with the law? Fix it to suit your wants, the wants of a tiny minority? I'm pretty sure Germans tried that in the 30s, Cuba has done it for 50 years, North Korea is still doing it...but go for it. I hope the drillers come out in full force and, as they have done before, poke holes in your absurd ideas. Hey, maybe you can get Doug Shields to move to PT and then run for supervisor. You and your five supporters can try molding the township into whatever crunchy utopia you think should exist. Better yet, you and Jet and Rod and the other usual suspects can live on a commune. Nevermind that existing zoning laws don't permit that. Just ignore them. That's how we do things in our country, right?

I know what we need is a comment from "The unknown ExPert" That spoke at the last hearing!! Or more members of the Hitler youth to try and force their will. Give it up, you could get all the votes by deceiving all the voters as you have done to get the signatures. But the fact is you cant vote to do something illegal !! Dont you hate when 1 fact can mess up a good argument ??

Ladies and Gentlemen, let the cards be dealt and the hand played out. There is no need for personal ambiquities to develop.

A voice for the Peters voters!

Cathy, Why do you ignore that the voters have always had a voice? I have elected my elected officials running this Twp. I didn't vote for you. Nobody voted for you. You are only representing your own selfish needs. Your tactics of scaring people and hiding from any accountablitly is repulsive. Someone will shine a light on your group and then what will you do? I know, you don't answer questions that will expose you for the fraud that you and your are!

It is unfathomable to this resident how drilling in an area zoned R-1 is even debatable. We did NOT purchase our home to live next to/be impacted by industrial operations. I would be equally concerned if someone decided to put a meat-packing operation in my neighborhood. Get it, Joe?! Thanks to those who put in the time/effort to bring this toa vote for all of the residents of our beautiful community. See you in NOv; I know how I & many of my freinds & neighbors are voting.

Baldwin Council votes to ban drilling for natural gas, Wilkinsburg passes natural gas drilling ban, Pittsburgh's council banned gas drilling which is still in effect and I predict they will move forward to place their referendum on the Primary 2012 ballot and I predict more bans to come.

And it is my understanding that only 4% of Peters has been leased. So the majority of residents will have to put up with 30 or 40 trucks per day per drill site, air and water pollution, property devaluation, compressor stations, 48" pipeline, etc. for only 4 %. So 96% suffer for the 4%. It doesn't make sense to me.

One additional comment, I heat my home with natural gas, I cook with natural gas and I dry my clothes in a natural gas clothes drier. I support the drilling of natural gas because it would be hypocritical of me to do otherwise.

I am thrilled to live in the United States where we all have the right to voice an opinion.
Call me a tree hugger...that is fine with me. I again say that many of us didn't move here to live with industry so close. Please come to meetings that are open to the community and voice your care and concerns. I feel we all should have our homes appraised..it would be interesting to have it done before the talk of marcellus shale and now with all the talk of many wells, etc. I understand that this is a time of tough financial downturns. I feel that this looks like the answer to many people.

What is wonderful is that here in our township we cast our vote.

I live in Peters but also lease a farm in Nottingham. For those of you who sing the praises of the gas industry, I think putting up with the lights (24/7), noise, smell when the well is flared, and the overweight trucks illegally spending on secondary roads will sing a different tune if you ever have to tolerate all these little inconveniences so your neighbor can make a buck. I for one am very glad to be able to vote for a ban. Please stop the ad hominen attacks. They are so inappropriate.

Thank you Faith, I offer them facts and they just attack the messenger. I would just advise those who would like to check the facts I have presented. Do your own research? All the newspapers online have entire sections dedicated to shale drilling, from the home page click on news and drilling or google. Go to PTMSA.com We still have residents in Peters on well water and up until recently our state allowed frack water to be dumped at our water treatment plants. The treatment plants have no process to remove these chemicals so in essence we diluted frack water through our treatment plants and into the rivers that we withdraw our drinking water. Plus our state asked the drillers not to take the frack water to the treatment plant, they did not demand them to do so.

@ Joe & PT resident: the part that many residents have an issue with is that this INDUSTRY is the only one of its kind allowed to be placed within 200 feet from our homes! And the safety of this extraction process is in question. How is that fair? And there is no jealousy with your neighbors! There is more to life than $$. Please think back to lessons that you may (hopefully) have learned as an innocent child.., greed is not good, do unto others as you would have them do unto you & simply BE KIND!! There is no need to be so hurtful

Facts?? What facts? All you've offered, Cathy, are the same tired talking points we've all heard before. "I want a ban on drilling." "Why, Cathy?"..."Because it's bad." "Why is it bad, Cathy?"..."Well, if it weren't bad, I wouldn't want a ban."....Empty argument, lady.

Neither you nor the five other people chanting and screaming at people in meetings or putting those ridiculous flyers on cars speak for me or anyone else who can walk and chew gum. You didn't move to PT to be next to industry. So why did you move to PT? Low taxes? That'll go out the window if you purposely convince elected officials to break the law. You're all like children--stamping your feet until you get your way. Know what I used to do with my kids when they acted that way? I'd ignore them. If that didn't work, I would mirror their actions to show them how silly they looked. Know the difference between them and you? They learned from it.
THose dopey bans in Pittsbugh and WIlkinsburg are worthless. "I hereby declare there will be no flying horse. I mean it." There. I just enacted a ban on something that will never happen. Makes me feel better.

And Joe brings up a great point. Why the heck are we, the common sensers, on this site writing the comments we are? These are all questions media people should be asking of the PTMSA.
1. How do you justify your position that drilling is dangerous when multiple agencies, state and federal, have found it to be safe?
2. You claim people are sick, livestock are dying, etc. What proof do you have, and can you please supply a copy of the medical reports?
3. Please supply a printed list of the petition signers.
4. Why do you advocate breaking the law instead of trying to change things in a legal manner?
5. You moved here because of cheap land or low property taxes. That will vanish if the township ends up in a lawsuit over the ban. Would you oppose the township signing a lease if it means keeping taxes at their present rate?

Cathy. When you present us a fact. We will listen,And just a wild guess with Faith ,she only leases a farm and has gas lease envy... Kelley tell your fraud squad to do the same, their behavior is good ???? Did your mom teach you to hang out with that type of behavior.. ? Dont tread on my rights...... DRILL BABY DRILL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And talk about greed...wow. I remember when PT was farmland. Rolling hills, green, not much activity. Look at it now. So we have a few elitists who view it as "I got mine" but now want to close the door on everyone else. It was ok for development to happen so you could have a large but cheap house, right? Tell me how your housing development preserves the land. Please, explain it. I'm all ears. Here's what I know, though. If you put a gas well on a farm, that land won't be developed for 30 years. Imagine that. An "industry" that actually preserves green space.
As for water, I'm sure you put chemicals on your lawn to make it look nice. Heck, that Donnan guy who keeps piping off at meetings and crying about supposed pollution IS a landscaper. Tell me his vocation isn't responsible for affecting groundwater. Oh, and he drives a pickup truck which I'm sure is fuel efficient...or not...

You all have lost the argument. Drilling will happen. So instead of forcing other residents to pay for your cause, why not figure out how to work with the drillers? Do you have a good reason not to?

Im waiting for Peters Patch to try and cover this topic from all sides,, Do you think it will happen ???

Joe - As journalists, we remain neutral in all cases. We've covered all official meetings and news (stemming from the meetings) on this topic, and will continue to do so—from a neutral, reporting standpoint.

Andrea- there are pro's and con's with every issue. Could you point out one column where you have explored the regional benefits of this industry ? Or an equal amount of print to the pro side ?

To the anonymous 3 that for whatever reason have decided not to post their names, you have not connected a single comment to a legitimate unbiased scientific report. Instead of throwing out hasty generalizations (I have lease envy) and ad hominen attacks, why not provide us with some peer reviewed scientific literature. I do not have lease envy the farm is NOt leased and I know many individuals in Nottingham who wish they had the opportunity to vote as we do in Peters thanks to the hard work of our fellow citizens. You want a membership list? How about starting with self identification. I am indebted to those who worked to allow me the opportunity to vote against the gas industry. I have read the scientific research. The process is identified in philosophy of technology as the democratization of technology. Technology is value laden not value neutral and the residents of PETERS should have the right to choose. All technology has social and ethical implications. May I suggest "Society Ethics, and Technology 4th edition by Winston and Edelbach. You will have difficulty refuting their academic credentials.

PTresident and joe, I receive emails daily commending the work that I, and my team, do. I am not siding with this group, I am simply reporting the news. I understand that this is a very polarizing issue. If there is an event (or local newsworthy specifics) you'd like me to cover, I'm available to do so. We do offer opportunities for residents to write columns via Letters to the Editor, which are always accepted as long as they are signed with contact information (full names) to verify. Please email me at andrea.bosco@patch.com, or call—724.249.7697.

http://www.bakerinstitute.org/publications/EF-pub-DOEShaleGas-07192011.pdf

this is my link to the Rice Univ study

Simply because we've interviewed them, does not mean we've taken sides. All information we've reported is factual. We went to the Washington County Elections Office for the information. Like I said, I would welcome a Letter to the Editor from you—an opinion-based piece with facts you can present. It would require that you state your full name. We will continue to report the fact-based news.

PTresident the big question is WHO ARE YOU??? Why not sign your name?

Pt Resident, you seem to have a lot of anger issues. You mantioned you are trying to not loose money. I think all of us are. We are trying to not loose money when a gas well in our neighborhood causes all of our property value to drop. We are trying to not loose money when those of us in the township have to find other water then what comes from our well. THERE ARE homes with well water in Peters, contrary to your claim. We are trying to not loose money when the toxic pollution makes us and our children sick and we have to go to the Dr and they put us through banks of tests, and cannot figure out why we are sick. So we are all for the same thing..... not loosing money. You also think that by banning this it is infringing on your rights... and maybe it is. But in the same token you are infringing on my rights not to live next to a toxic mess. Whose rights should win... if its money vs health and safety, the logical and ethical choice would be health and safety, but i bet you don't agree.

Andrea: I think I may have been misunderstood with my comments, I am sorry. and did not intend in any way to offend you and your staff. I think you do a great job and provide the twp with a great service. This is a very hot topic. I think enough has been said. Thank you for your understanding.......

PTR You are beyond ridiculous. I do not belong to any group. Hate blogs. Really how absolutely absurd. I believe it was the anti-drilling people that were targeted and whose names were placed on Homeland security list until Rendell intervened. See you at the polls but of course you will be forced to come in a disguise so the big bad anti-drilling people do not bother you. This is becoming too childish so I am out of here. Wish you luck in November.

Congressional report: 29 human carcinogens found in hydraulic fracturing fluids.
Nationwide, the companies injected 11.4 million gallons of products containing at least one of the so-called BTEX chemicals (benzene, toluene, xylene, and ethylbenzene).
Dish TX - In 2005, five gas companies opened an unmanned compressor complex, People were upset about noise, then the putrid and overpowering smells.
Lloyd Burgess, whose Lucky B Ranch borders the complex, said it wrecked his business and may have killed some horses. He points to gnarled, lifeless trees drooping between his land and the complex. "If it kills trees, how good could it be for people?" he said. Health problems followed for some. McKamie recently underwent a blood test that found an unusual enzyme in her liver that could be an indicator of cancer. Her daughter, Julianne, has for three years seen doctors and specialists in an effort to diagnose crushing pain in her arms, sudden loss of circulation that makes her hands turn blue and randomly occurring loss of strength.
They can't conclusively link their problems to the compressor plant or drilling, but wonder if benzene contributed.
Long-term health effects of exposure to benzene: The Dept. of Heath and Human Services has determined that benzene causes cancer in humans. Long-term exposure to high levels of benzene in the air can cause leukemia, cancer of the blood-forming organs.

Since I am posting on Peters Patch, I respectfully to Peters Patch don't want to put cumbersome links with other newspaper sources. I guess sources like the US Congress, the Dept. of Health and Human Services, widely known Dish TX. I precisely used these sources so they can be fact checked by googling or in yahoo. Be my guest and check the facts.

This subject has many people on the attack. Please consider what you are writing before you hit "submit".
Thank you.

From Cathy's quote: "They can't conclusively link their problems to the compressor plant or drilling, but wonder if benzene contributed." Um...Duh. go check the reports. The state of Texas took all kinds of blood samples from all the residents in the town. They found ZERO correlation between their blood and drilling. Know what they did find, though? That the smokers in the town had higher levels of arsenic and benzene (both found in cigarettes) in their systems. Huh. So, the question still remains, Cathy and Grant and whoever else--where is the proof? You don't get to manipulate people, lie and twist around the government system and then ask someone like me to explain why you're wrong. Nice try but we don't work that way in the US. Show us all the proof of sick people or the ill effects of drilling. Show us. Show us some evidence. Something. Anything.

And Grant, are you the one who lost his cool at the ocuncil meeting and started yelling at the supervisors? Or was that some other bully?

Why is there a rush to drill? The natural gas is not going anywhere? Would not the prudent reasoning be sure rather than beware? Remember, the cards are still being dealt, the hand has yet to be played. Patience is the virtue, exercising such is necessary at times when questions concerning value need answers?

Want to know what "rights of nature" means? Check out this sight: http://celdf.org/rights-of-nature, and see who's REALLY the muscle in a push for an amendment.

"Subordinating corporate rights to the rights of Peters Township residents" should concern every business owner in the township! Find out what the words in the amendment mean. Everyone is focusing on the drilling ban, but there is more than drilling at stake here.

Definition of NATURE
1a : the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing.

People as Sovereign. Peters Township shall be the governing authority responsible to, and governed by, the residents of the Township. Use of the “Township of Peters” municipal corporation by the sovereign people of the Township to make law shall not be construed to limit or surrender the sovereign authority or immunities of the people to a municipal corporation that is subordinate to them in all respects at all times. The people at all times enjoy and retain an inalienable and indefeasible right to self-governance in the community where they reside.

Any group that claims to promote their cause with facts, and then uses Josh Fox's "Gasland" as part of their promotion has zero credibility.

Rush to drill? We've been drilling gas in this state for 150 years. Know what's hilarious? Old, shallow wells, that are currently all over our area, were fracked decades ago. Yet, amazingly, people who live near them don't have two heads or webbed feet. That was before all the current regulations and oversight and even before the creation of the socialist monstrosity called the EPA.
Cathy, maybe you can tell us how the kool-aid tastes. People like you scare me because despite all the freedoms afforded US citizens and the underlying notio of independent thoughtin this country, it takes just one cult-like wacko to rope in people like you. BenPrice is a fraud and a phony, like Doug Shields. He's not an attorney, he's some guy who needs a purpose in life. The Pittsburgh ban lost. The Wilkinsbrg ban is worthless. THe PT ordinance is illegal.

But what I seein your writing, Cathy, is passion, albeit misguided and uninformed passion. Stop listening to extremists like Price and Jet, and do your own research. I thinkyou're smarter than you appear so why not try independent thought? And again, I'd like you or someone else to provide real facts and information, not anecdotes on why drilling/fracking is bad.

PTresident: I share your frustration , but I do realize that the editor and staff here do a great job. Just as we think the anti group should take their cause to the state capital. we need to direct our questions to the twp. manager and solicitor. I think there needs to be a twp. meeting to explain the very legel part of this action. We should not rely on this or any other media to look out for us. We need to get our own answers straight from the township manager. We could invite the media along and steal a page out of the anti-playbook......

I would like the residents of Peters to know I researched hydraulic fracturing for a year and a half. I have also been attending council meetings for that time also. I talked to possibly 1,000 Peters residents, I did not come to decisions lightly. I would not have pursued this laborious task without the backing of a majority of those I spoke with during this process. I love living in Peters Township.

Hey !!! Did anyone see the front page of the sunday O.R. ????
Interesting interview with our twp. leader.. It seems property values and new homes being built by gas related company emoloyees are increasing..... Who would have guessed at that !!!!! ? And apparently ther are lending institutions that will loan money for homes in this wasteland !!!!

"I did not come to decisions lightly"..So you're the entire PTMSA? And you're freely admitting you're making decisions for the entire community? How arrogant.

PT and Joe--I think a public meeting/explanation is a great idea. In fact, why not do what the wackos do and go hijack the next public meeting? Maybe we can get a few dozen "anonymous" speakers since apparently that's acceptable now (Bill Johnson shouldknow better). Demand, don't ask, that Silvestri and the rest of them explain exactly how they intend to enforce an illegal action. How does that work? What will it cost the township? How many of them will resign as a result? Why doesn't the township have a new solicitor? Where are the names on the petition? Oh, wait, I jsut thought of something. They had to turn in the petition, right? So it's now public information. Let's get the list, print the names, and start leaving it on car windshields. I mean, if intimidation and scare tactics work for five people, certainly they'll work for the 90 percent of the community that sees how silly this is.

As for Patch, I think they're doing a great job. Andrea is probably the most neutral writer they have. As she said, she just presents that facts. Good job, Andrea!

Two articles dated Aug. 13 2011 from a local PA newspaper, search for the complete article: this is why I personally don't think drilling belongs in a residential zoned area and why others think that way also:
Families file suits against drillers
Two Washington County families claim in separate lawsuits that a Denver gas drilling company contaminated their wells and property while conducting hydraulic fracturing operations at a nearby Marcellus shale site.
Paul and Yvonne Becka and David and Tara Dillon live near a well site in West Pike Run. They claim that Antero Resources Appalachian Corp. polluted their wells and the creek that gives the township its name by injecting fracking fluids into the well and by spilling diesel fuel and motor oil at the site. They claim the company also has dumped contaminated mud into ditches near their wells.
Documents on drilling spill released
Chesapeake Energy Inc. used 2-Butoxyethanol, ammonium chloride and hydrochloric acid among 70,000 pounds of chemicals at a Bradford County well that polluted private water supplies in an April spill, newly released documents show.
The blowout in LeRoy that sent thousands of gallons of drilling fluid into a field and a stream.
These are just two articles published yesterday.

Re

Cathy, I have no idea if drilling contaminated the Wash County wells. I'm pretty sure that you don't either. The courts will determine whether the drillers are guilty. Please post what is actually determined to be true by a credible source.

If you don't want drilling in a residential area then why don't you attempt to change the laws in Harrisburg? PA regulates the gas industry. If you want to speak for PT then run for an elected office. Since you seem to know what is in our best interest, I'm sure that you'll be easilly elected.

Cathy, just because two families filed lawsuits does not make their claims credible.

Please explain to us here on this thread how fracking fluid at 10,000 feet effects the aquifer layer at 150 feet. We've seen enough of "fracking fluid contaminates the water supply." That is old stuff, repeated often. We need to understand how the fluid and water supply interact. Be specific in your explanation.

Judge overturns Morgantown's gas drilling ban

Judges all over the place are rethinking this stuff. Check this out from today: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11228/1167708-100.stm

Peter's will be next. Way to to, hippies. Way to shed light on our community for being ridiculous. What's next, naked communes and legalizing pot?

RR's lawsuit against SF ordinance is merely a lawsuit filing. The merits of RR's position vs SF's ordinance, and balancing them PA's O&G Act and the US Constitution, have YET TO BE DETERMINED. Let's not jump to conclusions. Yes, drillers are getting annoyed that municipalities are making drilling a conditional use matter, which requires a public hearing and other requirements. But PA state law and the Municipal Planning Code permit municipalities to govern zoning, as long as the matters are not preempted by a state law, i.e. the O&G Act. So let's see what the lawsuit proceedings reveal. The SF ordinance restricts drilling to commercial and/or industrial zones, and requires conditional use approval process. PT's recently approved ordinance also requires conditional use process, but allows drilling in residential areas if lot is 40+ acres and on the overlay map. The "exclusionary rule" is the reason PT has drilling in residential zones, and SF does not (SF has more commercial/industrial than PT, so if PT restricted to only commercial/industrial, it could be successfully challenged as excluding drilling from PT). Bans, whether by ordinance or referendum, will definitely be successfully challenged, and have already been overturned in PA and WV. Also, many towns with bans rescinded them when lawsuits were filed - to save $$ since the outcome was clear - bans are illegal in PA and apparently in WV. But this RR/SF lawsuit? It will be interesting!

The guy who signed the lawsuit, Ranges attorney, lives in Peters. Bet he could have given us helpful advice. Range, Cabot, Consol, Chesapeake, Haliburton, etc have executives that live in Peters. Bet they could have given us helpful advice. Instead, we are following a mystery group(top secret credentials) advised by some "free" attorney.

Hey, PT, I wouldnt worry about it. If the above comment is the best legal advice they can come up with, this whole thing is dead in the water. She apparenlty doesnt understand the meaning of "legal" and "illegal". The PT ordinance is what we call "illegal", meaning it doesnt adhere to existing laws. If it did, we would call it "legal". And what does that mean, "bans are illegal in PA and apparently in WV. But this RR/SF lawsuit? It will be interesting!". Miss Kennedy, go do your research and read the filing. Apparently, SF is trying to impose a ban on drilling...which would apparenlty make it "illegal"...oh, how interesting.

bigrigroberto - you seem to be confused by the PTMSA charter ban amendment and PT's mineral extraction ordinance. These are two completely separate actions: PTMSA Action: the group obtained signatures for a charter amendment banning drilling, and gave it to the Washington County Elections Board last week so it can be on the November ballot - this action was done by PTMSA members and was not approved or condoned by PT Council; it is an illegal action because O&G Act does not permit municipalities to ban drilling. PT Council action: Council last week approved a mineral extraction ordinance which permits drilling on 40+ acre lots on the overlay map, under the conditional use approval process. This action is legal because it permits drilling under certain conditions. SF's ordinance does not ban drilling; it merely restricts it to certain areas and requires the conditional use approval process, which municipalities are allowed to do. RR claims that SF is "effectively banning" drilling because its restrictions will only permit drilling in a few areas. SF says "play by our rules which we are allowed to make under the O&G Act". RR says "no, your rules basically amount to a ban because they only let us drill in a very small area." A judge will decide which argument prevails.

For those of you concerned about PT's current ordinance, just access the PT municipal website, and read the ordinance passed by Council last week. This is the only official, municipal approved action thus far - the Mineral Extraction Ordinance approved by Council on August 8. PTMSA is a group of PT residents, many of whom want an outright drilling ban in PT. When Council made it clear they would not vote for a ban because it was illegal, PTMSA set about getting a home rule charter ban amendment on the November ballot, so all PT registered voters can decide if they do or do not want a ban in the form of a charter amendment. Regardless of whether or not the amendment is approved by voters, the amendment is illegal because it removes corporation rights in PT(violation of US Constitution) and bans drilling(violation of PA O&G Act - see Blaine Township federal lawsuit for more information). We have the PT mineral extraction ordinance now under which drillers will have to comply. If the amendment is not approved at ballot, we have nothing to worry about and the mineral extraction ordinance will remain in place. If the amendment gets approved at ballot, things will get tricky. However, there are legal measures the town or individuals/corporations can take which will ensure the ban amendment does not supercede the PT mineral extraction ordinance.

suzanne: Thanks, you explained alot. There is so much bad information around and also some people are just getting in to this debate. You got it all correct. I am hoping our twp. manager gets a little more vocal with the legal facts through the twp website,

Suzanne, Thank you for taking the time to share your information. It is appreciated.

Actually, Suzanne, the ordinance is illegal as well and could be challenged easily by any driller. It's not up to the township to require a certain amount of acreage on which to drill. That's just one example of many.
As for SF, if you combine the ordinance language with the overlay idea, it IS a ban in the township. Townships are allowed to use zoning to a degree to decide where drilling can take place but the point is, they still have to allow it to happen. The ordinance in SF doesn't allow for it so it's illegal. But as Joe said, thank you for chiming in. Wish you had offered this information earlier and more often during the hearings. We might not be where we are now.

Some of the other Patches are providing coverage of this topic. Both Canon-McMillanPatch and ChartiersValleyPatch have articles.

I did offer this information to many members of PTMSA beginning in January 2011 until recently. However, there is a hard core group within PTMSA which wants a ban, and which will not back down when faced with the legal implications, and the Blaine Township federal court case which overturned 2 separate CELDF drafted ordinances in Blaine Township. These contained the exact same wording as the PTMSA ban charter amendment. A small group of the PTMSA members agreed with me, and we jointly hired an attorney - Leslie Peters - to get PT to draft a strict but legal ordinance in PT. She did so, and made comments on our behalf during each of the PT Council hearings since Jan 2011. We are where we are because this is a volatile issue, with widely differing opinions. I don't think drilling should occur in residential areas; but the "exclusionary rule" does not permit towns to relegate a business or industry to such a small area that it effectively bans it. That's the RR argument with SF, and we'll see what happens. I am happy with PT's ordinance because it is aggressive but also legal. Previous court decisions and the O&G Act were carefully considered when PT's ordinance was drafted, so hopefully it will stand up in court. And all this publicity and public discussion is ultimately good for citizens because it is raising legitimate health, safety and quality of life issues which should be better addressed by the state or the feds.

First you insist the PT language is legal, then you say you hope it holds up in court. It won't because it's NOT LEGAL. Read the ordinance and then tell me how it's legal. It flies in the face of state law. And when you say you don't want drilling in residential areas, that's all well and good but do you know the difference between R1 in Peter's and R1 in McKeesport? Or R3 in PT and R3 in Canonsburg? None of those are the same so how exactly are you defining residential? See the problem?
But you are correct in that the language in the charter issue is identical to Blaine. They basically were saying municipal law trumps state and federal law. That is truly insane. So yes, the charter thing, even if the voters in PT are snowed over enough to approve it, will get wrecked in court. This is all a shame. There is a way to work with industries that doesn't have to be this contentious.

Suzanne, your approach is to be commended. You spent your own time and money in pursuit of a community solution. I would feel much more comfortable if we had the involvement of a professional with natural gas expertise. We have many experts in our community and there are many more for hire. Don't we have some of the same problems as South Fayette?

I agree with Bigrig. This is all a shame. We should either be trying to work with the industry or in Harrisburg working on changing laws.

Is it true ? I heard that an application to drill for our first new well has been turned in to the Twp ?

The drilling industry's comments that complying with local zoning laws is like applying for a driver's license in each town - pish posh! Every business must comply with local zoning laws - K Mart, Taco Bell, etc...... - and not just in PA but in every state. And KMart and Taco Bell have no state Oil & Gas Acts to help them develop! So the drilling industry's complaint is pure whining - it is not a credible complaint. Towns have zoning authority, and businesses must comply. The drilling industry has the PA O&G Act to help it develop, and the Act preempts municipalities from doing many of the things they'd ordinarily do regarding business approval. If KMart, Petco, Kentucky Fried Chicken and others can comply with local zoning laws, so can the drilling industry. They've got the $$, manpower, brains and incentive.
Also, the O&G Act states rigs must be at least 200 feet from a building. It says nothing about increasing that set back. Some court cases have supported towns which increased the setback reasonably; other court cases have not supported increased setbacks. There is no clear answer regarding setbacks, and towns can make their setbacks as they see fit. If they can articulate the reasons for the setbacks, and show that drilling is still permitted, they've got a fighting chance in court. A lot of law is not black and white, but subject to interpretation by towns and courts.

"A lot of law is not black and white"...Um, yes it is. What isn't always black and white is the application or interpretation of those laws.
To your point, how often is KMart asked to sweep their parking lot to ensure there is no trash? Petco isn't told to angle the lighting in their parking lot so it doesn't cast a glare on another business. And guess what--having the drililng rigs on a site is TEMPORARY...your comparison doen'st hold water, Ms. Kennedy. I think what they're talking about whenusing the drivers' license analogy is the fact that municipal government can attach different working conditions on the drillers from town to town. There is no consistency. That doesn't happen with the businesses you use as examples. ANd no, towns cannot make their setbacks as they see fit. Why do you think SF is going to end up in court??

Ok - some good points, but I stand by my comparisons. My bigger point is the drilling industry CAN comply with local zoning rules. There is nothing so inherently different or complicated from town to town that the industry can't figure out. The consistency is in the O&G Act, which governs most of the drilling industry; it leaves local towns only the power of zoning and governing ancillary matters (sound, lighting.....) The industry is full of capable individuals who CAN comply with local zoning regs; they just don't want to. Compliance requires more time and review by their in house counsel or review teams. That's the crux of their argument, because time = money, and the industry does not want to spend the money on local compliance. Compliance with local zoning regs is not an undue burden, and does not deny the industry's corporate rights to drill. It simply requires a little more time and review. Come on - the industry can't comply with local sweeping regs? Positioning lighting properly? Of course they can! If not, how can they drill properly and safely? They are lobbying Harrisburg to eliminate local zoning regs because they don't want to incur the extra time and expense. Call a spade a spade.
Regarding the temporariness of rigs: 1) leases permit drilling for a long period of time, and 2) nothing is permanent - KMart, Petco, occasionally close up shop. However WHILE they are in business they must comply with town regs. That's the cost of doing business!

Am I missing something? KMart has a little less than 100 stores in PA. These were built over a long period of time. Gas well are being drilled at a rate of a few thousand per year. Over 100 drillers. Wells must be placed where they will actually produce gas.

This is my biggest worry for PT. I don't have a deep understanding of the gas industry. Those who are involved in our ban/ordinance seem to have even less.

You're making my point for me. The drillers have no issue complying with regulations. But when they change literally town to town and, in most casese, hearing to hearing, it makes it a bit tough to plan their operations. What if you planned to sell your house and move from PT to say, Bethel Park..You list your house and find an interested buyer. But the town suddenly steps in and gives you a list of things you have to before selling your house. First off, you'd be stunned. Second, it throws a wrench into your planning. In the meantime, youve found a nice house in Bethel and the sellers don't have to do anything required of you in PT. See how that screws up your plans? There is no consistency. That's why there needs to be a statewide solution. if tonwshipswon't do it, Harrisburg should.

PT resident - you are not missing anything. The PT ordinance/overlay map have 15 parcels which meet the ordinance criteria - over 40 acres, accessible by a collector/arterial street, and on the overlay map. So there will only be 15 drills in PT. These parcels are in residentially zoned areas. However, the criteria above should ensure the drilling is not too disruptive for the town. And the drillers must get leases from the parcel owners; they can't drill without leases.
Big rig - your house sale comparision would be valid except fror one thing - the gas is HERE. Drillers are not going to pack up and go elsewhere because they don't like the local, permitted zoning regulations. The gas is HERE. That's why they are in such a tizzy! Local requirements do not "screw up plans" at all - they just make the plans a little more costly. There is a lot of huffing and puffing going on, but ultimately drillers must abide by local zoning regs. There already IS a statewide solution - the O&G Act. Drilling is one of the few PA industries which enjoys a state law to help them develop. The O&G Act removes many of the controls towns usually have. Drillers just have to learn to play well with others and share the sandbox with local regs. If Harrisburg seriously proposes revamping the Municipal Planning Code and removing zoning regs from towns, that will change everything in favor of drillers, but there will be LOTS of fighting if that is proposed!

Suzanne: You touched upon a point I have asked many times. What if we sat down as a twp. council and had the conversation with the gas co, What could we do to work together ? How would they respond ? If you have noticed they ( Gas Industry ) have really been fueling a lot of the local charities... What would happen if a forward looking twp. would take this approach ? Would the gas industry may-be work with them to test a police car on being powered by natural gas ? Could that gas maybe come out of twp owned property ? Sometimes you just have to ask !!!!!

Great ideas Joe! Think outside the box - I'd love to see that. I would not want to be "hoodwinked" by the industry in this approach, but it is definitely forward looking and creative. Natural gas as a fuel source is here to stay. Oil will be depleted within a few generations, so we need to prepare for that now, and develop a better stragegy for energy use. We need to be positive, careful, creative, prudent, and above all safe, in developing natural gas use.

How about when all this antagonism, which is often necessary in order to raise the legitimate issues, settles down, we approach Council with some of these ideas? And I don't think the antagonism will settle down soon - definitely the ban charter amendment, and action in Harrisburg and at the federal level, needs to resolve themselves. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail, and we can move forward with a good business, economic, safety, and development plan for our country's energy needs. By the way, that includes NOT shipping the Marcellus Shale overseas! That is definitely CRAZY, but right now the US Commerce Dept. regulates that activity, so there have to be some changes and federal requirements if we are really going to develop natural gas for our consumption, and not for sale to the higest bidder on the open international market!

Suzanne: I agree with most of your ideas. Im a little lost at how we could keep from exporting it. ?? Do you think the majority of the twp is somewhere in the middle with this issue ? I would love to see the county ( By the way we are part of washington county ) work with the gas industry and local twps on a pilot program to try on municipal vehicles. I do understand there are some red tape issues to clear up for this to happen.Wouldnt it be great for one of these companies to step up and approach the county with such an offer ????

Miss Kennedy, i'm not sure what is "crazy" about Us companies actually exporting a product for profit. All kinds of businesses across the country export the things they make. Theproblem is, due to "crazy" ideology in D.C., over the lat 20 years, our trade deficit has gottenout of control. I think it's about high time we start exporting instead of importing. As for drillers working with the county, why can't the county step up and make some suggestions? It's not the drillers who are elected....

It is a lie to say that Marcellus Shale drilling will reduce our foreign oil dependency if the drilled gas is exported overseas and not used here in the US. How will selling extracted gas to the highest bidder on the international market reduce our dependency on foreign oil? There is absolutely no connection between the 2 - gas drilling and reducing oil dependency - it is simply a sound byte. Selling it on the international market will increase profits for drilling companies and shareholders, but it will have no effect on our oil dependency. There are only two things which will reduce our foreign oil dependency: 1) reduce our use of it and 2) replace it with something else. The industry and politicians use the sound byte "reduce oil dependency - drill for gas" as a simple way of gathering support. But if you look closer you'll see it is fiction. Reality is that drillers will sell gas on the int'l market to the higest bidder, with no NO impact on our foreign oil dependency.
We will be committing energy resource suicide if we extract gas here and then sell it overseas, to India and China for example. If we shoulder all the risks, we should enjoy the benefits; and not just the company/shareholder profits, but the use of natural gas to replace some of our foreign oil use. That scenario will require major changes in DC, Commerce Dept. and industry policy, but it can be done.

Suzanne: I hear what you are saying.IF at township and county level we could encourage natural gas powered cars and with some kind of tax reward for the consumer to do so (state and federal),it will have an effect. I have been told that the new get-go stations will have fill up sites in their new stores for natural gas vehicles. Would it not be a great thing for our twp to strive for ? If only we wanted to work with these industry people instead of always trying to throw stumbling blocks in the way. The energy that has been put in to trying to keep this industry away would be of better use if put to the task of finding out how this could benefit us by working with the industry. I dont think our twp. manager will explore this. Some other twp. will have to do it first. That is thinking way to out of the box for PT.

Miss Kennedy, you are a complete ideologue. That's why your arguments make zero sense. I didn't mention foreign oil or our dependency on such resources. I was talking about commerce. And what is this "we shoulder all the risks" nonsense? Drillers take the risk, not the public. If you want to enjoy the benefit of gas or oil while doing none of the work move to Venezuela or Iran. That's how they do things in those countries. Here in the US, we still have a sembelence of capitalism left. It helps our economy when US companies sell the heck out of their products.

When and where is the next PTMSA meeting?

PTresident - I have minimal involvement with PTMSA, so I don't know when they meet; you can access their website at ptmsa.com and contact them that way.
bigrigroberto - you are right - I mentioned foreign oil dependency, not you. I believe we should look at our nation's long term energy needs and devise a plan to safely and responsibly replace foreign oil with substitutes - solar, wind, fuel cell/hybrid/natural gas powered vehicles, reduction and conservation of energy usage, etc....We also must meet our energy needs with our own obtained, naturally drilled products. Capitalism to a certain degree; public interest and nation's independence/ strength to another degree. We can balance both, but it will take major policy changes on the federal level to institute something like that. Regarding shouldering risk - the public certainly does take the risk, in terms of environmental safety. If water becomes tainted by truck/containment pond spills, nearby residents are affected. Increased air pollution - everyone risks that. Escaped methane gas - risk borne by those whose water supply is affected. We will all shoulder the risks in drilling, including the companies (financial risks), and driller workers (health, occupational risks). Risk always accompanies activity - but the risks can be significantly minimized by a marriage of local, state and federal regulations, industry compliance, and industry innovative techniques.

Suzanne: Could you fill us in on your take on PTMSA. ? Frankly they and their actions are an embarrassment to this township. You seem to have a handle on that organization that ran amuck. I know you were wise enough to leave when it started to go a little wierd. Please fill us in

Hi Joe. I can't fill you in on PTMSA because I have not met with them since February 2011, after I and a few others agreed to hire Leslie Peters to represent our interests in getting a strong, LEGAL ordinance in place. We are very happy with the result - the mineral extraction ordinance passed by Council on Aug. 8. After a myriad of emails to some of the PTMSA members in February and March 2011, regarding Ms. Peters vs. insisting on a ban ordinance or ban referendum, I "dropped out' of the organization. Now I only hear about their actions from the public Council meetings, through their website ptmsa.com, and through their campaign to obtain signatures for the ban home rule amendment referendum. I know there are quite a few members, some of whom are very practical and reasonable, and others who are more passionate than realistic regarding the ultimate success of a ban. They have certainly, through their reasonable actions and also their in my opinion unreasonable actions (i.e. the ban amendment), brought to the public's attention the issue of drilling in PT. So that is certainly a positive outcome.

Their website is available to anyone who is interested, and I think there is a section where you can email them to arrange a meeting or phone call.

I was surprised to find that the PTMSA website doesn't list any information about their meetings.

Joe, about your comment regarding gas fueled vehicles - I recall reading somewhere (PT Magazine maybe?) that PT is considering purchasing some gas powered vehicles within the next few years. I may be getting this mixed up with another town, but I think it was PT - rather forward thinking, eh?!!

suzanne, you may be referring to a recent story of Get-Go in Wexford and/or Cranberry that was planning to install two CNG refueling stations. I think Char-Valley Patch (Mike Jones?) wrote a story.

However, the story was missing some major pieces. I wrote a response, suggesting the story be expanded to include more information. But, the author, nor any other reader, responded. My request fell silent.

We do have some CNG powered vehicles in this area. Schwann food service trucks are frequently in Peters' neighborhoods. The odor is distinct, and easy to distinguish from a gasoline or diesel powered vehicle.

The refueling process does not lend itself to "in" and "out." I believe some refueling procedures are 10-12 hours. Of course, this works well for idle fleet vehicles. But, not so much for private vehicles driving about town. I don't know why the lengthy time (one of my questions asked, but received no answer).

The other major question is engine modifications. I have read that the mods are something like $3,000 per engine. Again, I don't know what is required and why the high cost. Spending this kind of money can make sense on fleets, where huge miles are accumulated, and service life is long. For the typical resident, driving around town, the cost is hard to recoup.

The information is sketchy on CNG. Maybe somebody here has more. If so, please post links.

Miss Kennedy, i"m all for other sources of energy--when they become economical. Right now they're total losers and being federally subsidized to the tnue of almost $300 per megawatt. That's ridiculous and silly. Someday they'll work but that isn't today. Here's what I pitch to the ptmsa folks--I'll wave my wand and poof, no more gas drilling here or anywhere else starting this minute. Now what...clock is ticking...now what. There is no infrastructre in place for "alternatives", coal can't keep up, thanks to hippies we haven't built any new nuclear plants. So now what?
As for the ordinance passed, hate to burst your bubble, but it IS illegal. You have to know the O&G act to see it but it won't pass a court challenge.

Suzanne; Thanks for the info on ptmsa, I dont know of anyone that admits to being a member,except for the 4 that always try and steal the camera time at the twp.meetings.I have investigated natural gas powered cars, refueling by a simple home type device can take hours ,but not at a fueling station. Our legislators need to help us on this one... One other item we all seem to over look. These Gas co are here for the next 50 yrs or more. they have spent a large sum of money. they may take 20 yrs to get under PT. Im sure as a twp we will not have tryed to work with them even in that amount of time. And as far as pt and natural gas powered vehicles no forward thinkers there.covered it personally with them months ago. they need help from the state on this one also.

For information on energy - go to The Center for American Progress-
Energy and Environment.

I think you will find some great information.

Thanks Deborah! I will check out the website tomorrow. I do like the way this blog has morphed from specific comments about the PTMSA charter ban amendment going on the November ballot, to issues involving energy use, conservation, exporting gas overseas, etc..........as all of these issues are involved, one way or another, with the general issue of Marcellus Shale drilling. I think this article has generated the most comments (120!) than any other articles in Peters Patch since it started in January 2011. Definitely a hot button topic around these parts!

Hi Suzanne, thanks for your comments. Just to be clear to our readers, we are a news site, and launched Nov. 31, 2010. I'm glad you're enjoying the site—keep reading!

Just to be clear, the site Debbie suggested promotes a left-wing position. The site is straight forward in their terminology about being "progressive." While the site may have articles associated with the topic, their position stands on the left side.